In this episode, Rihanot and Tiaraoluwa speak with Jennifer Luu and Michelle Elias, who co-created Uncovering Incels, an award-winning documentary exploring the hidden world of incels share their groundbreaking work on the incel (involuntary celibate) movement and the broader manosphere.
Through their research, they reveal the disturbing connections between online hatred and real-world violence, shedding light on the growing threat posed by these extremist communities.
Read and listen to the full episode below:
Rihanot Ojo-Oba:
Hello everybody and welcome back to The Counter Narrative Podcast, where we dive deep into the issues that shape our societies. I am Rihanot Ojo-Oba and I don’t do this alone.
I have here with me the incredible amazing Tiaraoluwa Oluwabukunmi Fadeyi.
Hey girl.
Tiaraoluwa Fadeyi:
Hi Rihanot, how are you today?
Rihanot Ojo-Oba:
I am fantastic. You look bright and lovely and it doesn’t look like you’ve been sleeping in this heat that is currently affecting everybody, because you don’t look like one of us, my darling.
Tiaraoluwa Fadeyi:
Please I have my fan and AC on right now because it’s so hot, it’s really hot.
Rihanot Ojo-Oba:
If we have to talk about the heat we’re not going to leave this conversation.
Tiaraoluwa Fadeyi:
We would not leave this conversation on time if we go deep into the heat so hello listeners today’s episode features an enlightening conversation with Jennifer Luu and Michelle Elias from sbs defeat and co-creators of the award-winning documentary uncovering incels their work sheds light on an awful misunderstood and hidden part of the world of incels
Hi Michelle, Hi Jennifer.
Michelle Elias: Hi, how are you?
Jennifer Luu: Hi, it’s good to be here.
Rihanot Ojo-Oba:
Welcome to the show.
Michelle Elias: Good to be here.
Jennifer Luu: Thank you for having us.
Rihanot Ojo-Oba:
So Jennifer and Michelle tell us, your documentary has sparked crucial conversations and our listeners are eager to know more about this what really inspired you to create this documentary
Michelle Elias:
Yeah I can start off, it started with an article that I wrote a couple of years ago and it was an article on JordanPeterson, who I think people know is a well-known but controversial commentator and I guess he was talking about incels and how we should have more empathy for them.
And I wrote an article on it saying that it’s actually quite a complicated community and it’s not that simple and maybe the empathy is not the right word and I actually got a lot of hate from writing that article and I was told that by one person and one is not a lot by a long shot but by one person that I had mischaracterized incels and I guess that’s when I started to think “was my article fair?”
I think when you’re a journalist one thing that you don’t want to do is, you know, mischaracterize the people that you’re writing about.
So I started looking into the incel community and then in comes Jen and she also crossed over and then we combined forces and I’ll let Jen kind of talk about her a bit.
Jennifer Luu:
Yeah so I was actually working on a different documentary at the time on a very similar topic which I’m working on again now but I was browsing
a lot of internet fors and chat rooms and I happened to come across a bunch of incels and particularly Australian ones which I found really interesting because I didn’t know too much about the community.
I know they were active online since, probably I’ve known about them since the 2000s so it sort of piqued—I was very curious about this community and I knew Michelle was looking into them as well so we sort of teamed up.
I had met online an incel who was quite high up in the community and knew a lot of others and he passed me on to a bunch of Australian incels and through word-of-mouth and sort of speaking to them all and gaining their trust we were able to get them on camera and get them to trust us enough to tell us their stories.
Tiaraoluwa Fadeyi:
Okay that’s impressive, really impressive work you did there. So in your work in your exploration of the incel world were you able to draw or validate any connections between online misogyny and offline violence against women?
Jennifer Luu:
It’s not super clear cut. There’s not a lot of research on the incel community. We did talk to a couple of researchers as part of the documentary ,
but we can’t say for sure that there is a clear link between online misogyny and real-life violence or real life, whether it’s physical or sexual.
But we know that in these forums here is a lot of talk of things like rape. There is a lot of talking about things like committing violence or wanting to commit violence against women.
And we did speak to one incel who admitted to previously having thoughts like wanting to commit violence or sexual abuse. But I think it’s important to stress as well that the vast majority of incels are peaceful and they’re not going out and committing crimes and that’s what our research told us as much, as well. Did you want to add to that, Michelle?
Michelle Elias:
Yeah, it’s tricky. And I guess that’s why it was such an interesting thing to explore because it is such a closed off community. So researchers can’t kind of… get in and unpack how much of that is connected to real-world violence. But of course, there are very famous examples that everyone kind of references in the UK and the US where it has kind of led to murders.
And I guess one thing that the Centre for Countering Digital Hate, which is one of the people that we interviewed, said was that a post about rape was made every 29 minutes on the most popular incel platform. And I guess we can’t make clear conclusions about how much this proliferates in the real world.
But I guess it’s not a healthy thing to express these intentions or at least normalize this violence. And yeah, even with our small sample size of the people that we interviewed, a lot of, for example, the girl that we interviewed said that a lot of the men who she had crossed paths with were accused of something. At the most extreme end, this was rape. At the smaller end, it was things like sextortion and doxxing and that kind of thing.
Jennifer Luu:
And also, I just wanted to add that a lot of the people in the forum claim that the posts they’re making about violence are just jokes or banter. But at the most extreme end, we know it does have real-life implications. And one of the researchers we spoke to said he said there was a study that showed incels were connected to around 60 terror attacks in North America. So that is a bit concerning as well.
Rihanot Ojo-Oba:
You know, when I was watching the documentary , I made a note. When you were talking to Ryan, he says he thinks violent thoughts towards women. And he mentioned that he wanted to break a woman’s nose so that she wouldn’t get a boyfriend.
And, you know, I was just looking at him and I was just wondering, like… First off… It was really triggering, by the way. And I was just looking and wondering how… You say that, oh, women are not attracted to you. You’re virgins. Women do not want to speak to you. But you have no empathy. You’re not nice to women. You do not use… You speak to women in such condescending manners.
Just maybe if you were kind to the people around you, or maybe women, you would have people who would want to associate with you. But you go around threatening women or thinking the worst of women and you expect women to interact with you. And, you know, the conversation around having to… When so many boys say, “oh, I was just joking with you”. Why do your jokes have to be violent related?
You could be going on your own and a guy would just tap your ass. They’re like, oh, I was just kidding. Why does he have to be violent related? And this… This is the bigger conversation. This is the bigger conversation. It’s so unfair and it’s so damaging, by the way. I mean, I listened to the 14-year-old girl and she talked about sextortion. And, you know, they use words like, “oh, you’re not like other girls. You’re so mature for your age”.
And I’m like, we hear these things daily and that’s how coercive control starts. And that’s how you start to feel like you’re one of the boys. But guess what? Someday, one day, it gets to you. You become one of their victims too. It’s really unfortunate.
It’s really, really sad. It’s really, really sad.
It was a lot to take in. Myself and Tiara were just talking through it. I’m like, have you watched it? What? What?
And she was like, because I’m fasting and she’s like, you should… Yeah, it was really a lot, really. Because you don’t want to curse. You know, you don’t want to curse while you’re doing your Ramadan. It was a lot.
And, you know, these guys are so young. They’re like, you can be doing so much good in the world without having to carry so much hate and burden towards women and girls who have done nothing to you.
Jennifer Luu:
Yeah, they were all vulnerable. And that’s how they ended up there. Like, they all started vulnerable.
They all had a kind of a bit of resentment towards women and they end up there. And then obviously that’s where it grows. Yeah, that was consistent.
Rihanot Ojo-Oba:
Remember the Raymond guy you interviewed who says that if you’re not nice and lovely, so many women… The Raymond guy that was going to the gym.
And, you know, I was just looking at him and I was thinking that, see, no matter how much money you have, no matter the kind of body you have, if you’re not nice to women, nobody is going to associate with you. It’s not rocket science.
Your attitude, your behavior, it determines a lot of things that would happen to you in the world generally. But if you think about the body, the money, the cars that you drive, I’m like, no, no.
Treat women with dignity, respect, and you will have female friends. Not to talk of relationships, you know.
Michelle Elias:
Yeah, that’s so true. Because a lot of them didn’t have women in their life that they looked up to or friends with.
Jennifer Luu:
So, yeah, I think that definitely makes a difference. Not sort of having women that they could talk to on a normal, just a han level rather than seeing them as, you know, a sexual object or with resentments.
Michelle Elias:
The other thing is that a lot of the people in our YouTube comments also said that they were fixated on their looks, but they’re actually not unattractive. Like, a lot of them commented on Ryan saying that he’s actually an attractive guy and exactly what you said; that’s not the point. That’s not the part that would kind of, you know, turn them away a bit from women. Exactly.
Rihanot Ojo-Oba:
So, what would you say struck you the most or what would you say are the insights that struck you the most during this research?
Michelle Elias:
I think one of the most interesting things is that there’s this fixation on virginity that they’re all obsessed with or kind of speak about a lot.
There’s this, a lot of talk about virginity and that they’ll never be able to have these sexual relationships with women. But then, two reasons. One is that, I’m not sure if the incels or the former incel that we spoke to had sexual encounters with women.
I think that was one of the things that surprised me. And that the definition of an incel was not this consistent thing.
So, some people thought it was whether you could have a sexual relationship. Some people thought that some men didn’t even know that they were incels just because they haven’t had a relationship. And they were automatically part of this group and this online community. What about you, Jen?
Jennifer Elias:
Yeah, for me, I think it was probably how young the ones we talked to were. So, basically, the ones we spoke to were mostly between the ages of, let’s say, late teens to early 20s.
Yeah, I mean, the oldest ones would have been 30. But, yeah, it was quite interesting to me that they already had this mindset that they had given up on the idea of finding a relationship so early on in life.
And Tom, the incel we spoke to in the first part of the documentary , he told us he didn’t think a woman would ever find him attractive. He hadn’t spoken to a woman in three years other than his relatives. And when I asked him if he had ever attempted to ask a woman out or find a relationship, he actually told me no.
So, it was quite interesting that he had already given up before he started trying.
Michelle Elias:
Yeah, there was one guy who didn’t make it into the final documentary and we spoke to him about how he was thinking about having leg lengthening surgery. So, going overseas, paying up to $50,000 to kind of essentially break his bones and use all of these tools to make him a couple of inches taller.
And we asked him, have you ever, and essentially he wanted to do this because he thought that it would help him attract women if he was taller. Yeah, and we asked him, have you ever tried to make friendships with women?
Have you ever kind of gone up to women and started there? And his answer was no. So, I think the other thing that was really shocking was that there were kind of obvious steps or less extreme steps that they could have taken but automatically went onto some other lines of thinking. And I would say that all of that is because of what they’ve seen online.
Tiaraoluwa Fadeyi:
Okay, so I think it’s very important what you just mentioned about how they see physical attraction as everything. You know, when you have conversations with them, they think, oh, they have to be very handsome.
That’s why they have the chads and all of that in the incel community. So, they think they have to be really handsome or very rich to be able to have women which is why they have resentment towards women about that, like, oh, they feel that they’re not…
You know, when I was watching the documentary , I was looking at them like, this friend, I couldn’t see their faces. But I was like, they’re not bad looking in the real sense. Like, these guys don’t look like they’re bad looking. I think it’s just a mental state for them where they feel, oh, they have to look like models for them to be able to get women.
So, I think it’s about the community, what they tell them that, oh, you have to be very gorgeous. You have to have tons of money for women to like you.
It’s very problematic, actually. It really is problematic.
Yeah, so the word “Chad actually comes from the in-cell community. And now it’s quite a popular word on the internet. So, that kind of tells you a lot. And I think it all stems back to the theories that they talk about. They have a lot of theories in these fors and chat rooms.and the most popular one is called the black pill.
So, basically, the theory is that women will only go for the most attractive or popular or wealthiest men and because they think that they’ve lost the genetic lottery, you know, or they think they’re not attractive or they don’t earn enough money or, you know, their life’s not as successful as they hoped.
They think that they’re kind of the bottom of the barrel and they don’t have a chance of getting women. So, it’s this theory that’s really perpetuated throughout the community and there’s a phrase they use, which is, “it’s over”. So, they like to say this phrase a lot.
And it just really, they really reinforce each other into this sort of negative, pessimistic mindset.
Tiaraoluwa Fadeyi:
And to me, it feels more like a self-esteem issue to me.
Like, because I remember one of them saying, “oh, my parents don’t know I’m a loser”. And I was like, “oh, so this person thinks he’s a loser”, because of that. He uses that to act in the real world.
And then he uses that to think women would not want him. So, it’s just a very, it’s a very vicious circle, really. And, yeah, and in your conversation with Tom, he mentioned that he has a server where they talk about incel stuff and all of that. So, basically, social media plays a huge role into this society and especially in the incel world. So, based on your research, would you say it’s an enabler of the incel movement?
And, like, has it been able to actually help in the spread of the ideologies?
Michelle Luu:
I would say that it definitely gives them more access to these places. I mean, like most things on the internet, because it’s just a few clicks away, they find their niche communities. And then that is it. It’s the avenue that kind of acts as their solution to all their, like, grievances against women instead of kind of speaking to someone in real life who can mellow them down.
They find this corner of the internet that kind of ramps it up instead of brings them back down to, you know, what it actually is like. So, yeah, a lot of the people that we spoke to and a lot of the people in the documentary didn’t know each other, obviously, before that. So, they all connected online.
And I guess without the server, would they have met? Probably not. Would they have connected with the incel philosophy and egged each other on? I would say probably not.
Jennifer Luu:
Yeah, it is worth noting that since the incel movement has become more popular, I think a lot of social media platforms are trying to get rid of the community. They’re sort of banned on Reddit. They’re banned on Twitter. They’re banned on a lot of other social media platforms. So, they’ve been driven further into their own fors and chat rooms and private servers.
But like a lot of things on social media, it’s really hard to regulate. It’s really hard for the algorithm sometimes to pick up when you’re talking about certain controversial topics.
So, it does slip through the cracks and I have seen a lot of incel content on mainstream social media websites as well.
Michelle Elias:
Yeah, and I guess because they’re very online, they kind of know how to get around these things. They’re not, yeah, they kind of know how to get around these things for sure.
Tiaraoluwa Fadeyi:
Yeah, I remember when I mentioned that they are mostly in STEM fields. The incels are mostly in STEM fields. So, they know how to get around these things and they don’t even relate to people.
They are chronically online. So, that’s… And they can always find a way around it. They can always find a way around all the bans on Reddit, on social media. They can always find a way around it. So, it’s… So, I think social media actually plays a huge part in this.
Jennifer Luu: Yeah, definitely.
Michelle Elias: Yeah, I don’t know if they said that they were mostly in STEM to us. Yeah, they did.
Tiaraoluwa Fadeyi:
Yeah, they said it in your documentary .
Michelle Elias:
Yeah, I guess the few that we spoke to were mostly in STEM. But, yeah, it’s such a mixed bag. Yeah. Because a lot of them also call themselves NEET. So, not in… What’s the acronym, Jen? I can’t remember.
Jennifer Elias:
Not in education, employment or training, I think. Yeah. So, a lot of them kind of don’t have, I don’t know, other things filling their time, which is why they probably spend so much on time, which is why it kind of becomes this downward spiral again.
So, that’s another thing that was found out by researchers that they kind of mentioned as well.
Rihanot Ojo-Oba:
Okay. Speaking of not having other things to fill their time, do you think that if these young boys were not so fixated on sexual relationships, maybe we may have lesser boys in the incel communities?
Just maybe if they had more non-romantic relationships or they had more things that we’re doing with their time, do you think we’ll have less boys in the incel communities?
Jennifer Luu:
I think so. I would hope so. A lot of…Going back to Michelle’s point on a lot of them identifying as neets, there were some researchers we spoke to who did an analysis of the most popular incel for and they looked at a million posts and they found a few similarities between the people who were posting on the for and a lot of them did tend to be unemployed, so they did have time to go down rabbit holes on the internet.
But aside from that, even if they’re in work and study, I think, yeah, definitely talking to a woman in their life instead of looking at stereotypical memes and posts online would definitely give them a more well-rounded view of women.
I think it would help sort of see women as sort of han beings on the same level instead of just this other species that they don’t really feel comfortable interacting with. I think that would definitely help with their mindset as well.
Michelle Elias:
Yeah, I guess any avenue where they socialize and… Yeah, I guess the common thing with a couple of them is that they had gone through long periods where they weren’t speaking to women and I don’t think being online is necessarily the most healthy thing when it comes to finding more women.
I think, yeah, having those relationships are best built online—sorry, in real life. Yes.
Tiaraoluwa Fadeyi:
So how do you… How do you think the rise of the incel culture has impacted broader societal conversations on gender, on relationships and mental health?
Michelle Elias:
I think one thing that we’ve kind of touched on, but I’ll say it in a different way, is that all of them had had bad experiences with women when they were really young or some of them had been bullied.
I think Ryan said that he was bullied consistently. And instead of having supportive people in his life that could kind of validate those feelings a little bit and put him into perspective, he went online and got the most extreme form of validation, which said that women are the enemy and women are the worst.
Yeah, so I think a lot of that comes back down to their support network and how much support they have when they want to deal with these mental health issues or just small problems in their life.
Instead of getting reasonable responses, they’re getting the most extreme response. And that’s what kind of worried me at least. And I would say Jen agrees with this for sure.
Like, instead of finding reasonable responses, they just got the most extreme response. And it makes me sad to think that there weren’t steps between that that could have stopped that or someone who could have stopped that before they went and found these more extreme communities and more extreme forms of validation.
Jennifer Luu:
Yeah, I definitely agree with that..And I think even having any kind of support network in their life is really important, even strong male role models, because a lot of them seem to come from broken families and they didn’t, you know, they said that the main reason for joining these incel fors was for the sense of community, as Michelle said.
So it really gave them a sense of belonging and it’s unfortunate that there weren’t enough people in their day to day life that they could talk to about these things. And they had to turn to these sort of niche online communities to feel accepted and understood.
Michelle Elias:
Yeah. So even Ryan, who was trying to move away from the community, said that one thing that he’ll miss is the sense of community. So even after he recognized that it was this thing that was not healthy, he kind of said he’d miss all the conversations that he’d have with these guys He’d become friends with. Which I think, says it all.
Tiaraoluwa Fadeyi:
Oh, well, that’s very insightful, because, you know, the conversation people just look at it from one side sometimes. Well, it’s as it joins into so many other parts, including the mental health. We spoke about self-esteem early on and all of that. So, yes, thank you very much for that.
Rihanot Ojo-Oba:
Sorry. OK, Michelle. Michelle, no. Michelle, please go ahead.
Michelle Elias:
One more thing I remember, which also didn’t make it into the documentary , but there were a lot of posts that referenced suicide, and there was this overlap between, obviously, poor mental health and the incel community and even if we don’t agree with the rhetoric and all of this misogyny that they’re spouting, it was very sad to read the amount of posts that referenced suicide or self-harm by the same people who were in these communities.
Rihanot Ojo-Oba:
So, you know, it’s so ironic. You hear when this group of people say women are enemies, women are the worst, but it is women that are still dying, and it is you killing women.
And, you know, now we have to turn to solutions. Well, what actions do you think the society can take to prevent the growth of the incel ideology?
Jennifer Luu:
Yeah, I think, yeah, at the end of the day, educating young people, especially on, you know, healthy behaviors and having good role models in your life, I think that would really help.
One of the researchers we spoke to said it needs to be like a top-down education on every level, whether it’s in schools or universities or even from the government itself. Just… Just sort of letting people know, and especially young men who might feel lost and alone in the world, that, you know, it’s not OK, no matter how angry you are, to be misogynistic or, you know, threaten violence towards women.
And, yeah, just having that support there, I think, is really important.
Michelle Elias;
And the other thing I think is that when I see people, like Andrew Tate, become suddenly very popular, there were a few months where everyone was talking about how bad his messaging was online. And I guess some social media platforms intervened early but some didn’t. And now he is just so popular. And you keep reading about how high school teachers are trying to shake the Andrew Tate kind of misogynistic messaging out of young boys.
And I just think, I don’t know, people with power need to be, to be quicker in shutting down these big, these big role models or, you know, bad role models that get into the heads of young boys when they’re looking for guidance.
Tiaraoluwa Fadeyi;
OK, that’s, yes, that’s very, that’s very important. That’s actually really important. So in, we already established that the media has a lot to do with the spread of the incel society and the ideologies.
So how do you think the media can also help in curbing it and spreading more fixes for this issue than the problem and ideologies itself? How can the media play a role in this?
Jennifer Luu:
Can I clarify? Are we talking about mainstream media, not social media?
Tiaraoluwa Fadeyi:
They spread mostly on social media. So maybe we focus on social media. So let’s say social media.
Jennifer Luu:
Yeah, so I think what they’ve started to do already, it could be a solution. The fact that they’ve banned certain keywords on different platforms, such as I know the word “incel” is banned on certain platforms and on platforms where there are private chat rooms, which are not necessarily as easy to, it’s not publicly accessible. It’s only open to, by invite. I’ve seen, I’ve seen them ban and take down servers.
So that there must be some level of administration or moderation going on so I think yeah content moderation on social media and changing social media policies to ban things that are, you know threatening violence or misogynistic is really important first step.
Tiaraoluwa Fadeyi:
Okay, Michelle?
Michelle Elias:
So what intervention we should do on social media. Sorry, could I get the question one more time?
Tiaraoluwa Fadeyi:
how can how can we, how do you think social media can be used because the problem started with social media basically not started, well it was publicized by social media so how can social media be used to also curb it and make sure that there are fixes for young boys and men who are drawn to the incel community.
Michelle Elias:
It’s hard but I think I mean there are probably better people to ask about this but I think a lot of it comes from the things that they see in real life that help them realize that this is not real and that the messaging is wrong and that women aren’t the enemy.
But I guess if we’re going to be realistic and they’re all gathering online and they spend all this time online, you kind of need to meet them where they are already and find ways where you can be just as powerful on social media and just as present and relevant on social media, in the places where they’re gathering and talking about themselves and women.
I don’t know what that looks like but yeah I guess when you talk about young people you want to talk with them not at them and if they’re on social media you need to be there too.
Jennifer Luu:
Yeah there is an interesting counter argument to the banning. You know, I spoke about social media banning certain words in certain communities, but in a way, when you ban things you just drive them deeper and further away from public view.
So there is an interesting argument that by letting these communities be more public and more visible, it’s actually easier to reach them than if they go into a private chat room or a private forum or even the dark web where you know you definitely won’t be able to reach them.
So you know, I don’t know what the right solution is but yeah there’s different approaches to it.
Tiaraoluwa Fadeyi:
So your last point, I think is something that’s that should be looked into because when they are driven deeper into into their shell, they have nber one—they are they are resentful so they use that to actually throw more vitriol at women so there’s that and then they are able to share that that thoughts freely if they have—if they’re on social media platforms where everybody is and this i know you can see their posts maybe they’ll be a bit, they’ll be a bit tamer with the things they say but when they go deep into those servers where nobody else is checking and you know they are very, according to what you said earlier, they are very secluded they are very private.
They don’t allow people into their network so when something like that happens, you know that they can get the free range to share anything and everything here. So I think I get your point about not driving them away from mainstream social media so that we can be able to see.
Because yesterday when I was checking, because I was trying to prepare for this so I was checking documentary again and I saw some of the things they were saying in those chat rooms but they were saying women are evil, women—it was shocking to me because it’s their server, they can say anything they want to say over there.
So it was really shocking and triggering and very scary to me like “oh people can share these kind of things online and all of that”.
So yes I think I agree that we need to be able to have access to what they say, to make them less—to tame them really and make it less dangerous
Jennifer Luu:
Yeah, it’s an echo chamber at the end of the day, so it’s hard. If you don’t have anyone who has opposing views talking to you all the time and you’re just with people with like-minded views, that’s how things become extreme.
Tiaraoluwa Fadeyi:
I think that makes sense. Thank you for your answer. Thank you both for your answer
Rihanot Ojo-Oba:
It’s been an insightful conversation and I believe you’ve touched on the reason why people might join the intel communities and with the understanding that no one is immune to such influences what advice would you offer to those at risk of being being drawn into community
Exactly because I saw in the documentary where one of the slurs used to describe females I think it would not. I think I saw it where it says women peak at 12. If we have young boys who think that because a 12 year old is a girl, a 12 year old is a girl child, a girl child has no business even the 14 year old girl that was interviewed she’s still a girl she has no business to be in such communities.
So what advice do you have because it’s easy to say I would never fall into peer pressure. It is so easy to say.
So what advice would you offer to those at risk? I mean if nobody’s taking anything away from this session what advice would you give anybody listening?
Michelle Elias:
it’s less so advice but more so something that really just shows how kind of flawed these communities are, but we spoke to Ryan in the documentary and he said that the whole community is built around how they have this shared belief that they are never going to be loved by women they’re never going to make these connections but then the moment he made these connections he was completely cast out of the community, he was made to be the enemy even though they talk a lot about how this is the end goal (and obviously women shouldn’t be an end goal) but you know women are seen by a lot of them as the end goal.
The minute that happened he became the enemy which just goes to show that their thinking and what they kind of put
on a pedestal is actually not the truth they just want to become, they just want to keep everyone in this little bubble where everyone subscribes to this really kind of flawed thinking and sometimes toxic and misogynistic thinking and I guess, yeah I guess it just shows that it’s not a support community.
It’s built and pegged as the support community but it’s not a support community at all and instead it just is there so that everyone can kind of validate each other’s opinions but yeah in terms of advice, I would say the common denominator is that they wanted people in their life to support them and they didn’t have that support so it all comes down to kind of loneliness and having positive role models
Tiaraoluwa Fadeyi:
Okay, what do you think Jen?
Jennifer Luu:
Yeah totally agree with all that yeah I think we spoke a lot about having positive role models and good family support as well so yeah just just that and I guess if you’re not an incel but you do come across one or you know one in your life, just to treat them with empathy and respect even if they if their viewpoints might differ from yours because that might be the first step in getting them to turn around and see that oh maybe maybe the world isn’t as bad as I think it is and maybe there’s a way I can change and you know grow as a person.
Jennifer Luu:
And in fact when we asked Ryan that it was the last question in the entire documentary for other people who haven’t kind of gone through the same journey as you, what would you tell the people that tell the people trying to engage with them and he said exactly that “treat them with respect and empathy and kind of give them someone to talk to”.
That’s all he wanted.
Tiaraoluwa Fadeyi:
Well thank you very much for that. You know talking about treating them with empathy and respect. You know it’s a two-way street because you cannot have somebody treating you with disrespect all the time and then you have to be the bigger person to them and yes I totally get you.
So in your conversation with Ryan, he mentioned that he was jealous of women, that women have it easier in life, that life is easier for women.
Do you think this is true ?
Michelle Elias:
Of course not, I think. Of course not, look at all of the research, look at everything. Women disproportionately are the victims of sexual violence i mean there are a bunch of things that we can list right? women aren’t better off but yeah I guess it just kind of goes to show that-
yeah there’s still—as the expert said in our in our interview, there’s so much gaps in knowledge from the men and there’s just no listening from both sides sometimes
Jennifer Luu:
yeah I think they’re quite good at cherry picking different things so men and women definitely have different problems for sure and maybe in some aspects men feel unfairly treated but yeah the studies they’re looking at saying, you know for example, women will only go for the top five per cent of most attractive men. You know, they’re definitely looking, they’re choosing what to believe and you know I don’t know if they’ve thoroughly done much research on the lived experiences of women.
Tiaraoluwa Fadeyi:
yes you know when he said that and I was like oh.
Rihanot Ojo-Oba:
Is it the GBV stats? Period poverty? Girls out of school? FGM? Femicide? Child marriage?
Can we go on and on? Unequal pay— no way, no way, no way if you’re not treating women with dignity, kindness and respect—nobody’s going to want to talk to you so if you can do that you’d be amazed. But you’re unable to do that and then you blame the entire women for that problem.
It’s not possible, it’s not possible women do not have it easy. I do not agree but they have to say something to soothe their mind so you know if it makes them sleep better at night it’s okay.
Tiaraoluwa Fadeyi:
Before we go. I wanted to check in, when you were doing the documentary. How did it take a toll on your mental health because just watching it alone, I felt triggered, I felt weird.
Did it take a toll on your mental health? How did you deal with it?
Jennifer Luu:
Well we did. It was a lot of reading dark things and and not very nice things on fors for two months and you know, but I think it was great that we were working together on this and co-producing because it was really good to have someone else to turn to and find support and talk things over and say “hey, I just read this messed up thing, can we talk about it?”
So yeah, it was really good and our team was really conscious of how difficult this topic was for us and was always checking in and we had conversations with experts. They had people come talk to us about personal safety and always offered mental health support, if we needed it.
So I think our team was quite good in that way. What did you think, Michelle?
Michelle Elias:
Totally. I think it was so good to have each other because then we could kind of vent at the end of the day sometimes and just be like “did you see this?” “Did you hear this?” “This is wild, right?”
But then, equally I think, which kind of says it all in a way. We just didn’t process some of the stuff we were reading until we had finally wrapped up the project. So, Jen and I were saying, we had read all the stuff and we’re in the thick of it.
We’re talking to these people and these people and we knew on paper that these things and quotes were insane like “I have violent fantasies”, “I have fantasies about rape” and hurting women but I don’t think we fully clocked how insane some of these things were until like the project wrapped up, we took a step back and we were like “oh this is not good.”
And then I just think like, even saying it now kind of I dunno if it’s mirrored at all in the people who join these fors. They read it to the point where it becomes normalized and they take a step back and they think, “okay wow, this is not the best.”
Jennifer Luu:
It’s quite funny as well, seeing people’s reactions to the documentary like on YouTube and commenting on different parts of it.
Like “ah, that was really messed up”, it makes us also take a step back and think, “oh yeah, that really was messed up.”
Michelle Elias:
It’s so insane when you hear this so many times and the meaning of it just gets removed because you’ve heard it so many times but you’re like, “this is the consequence” this is what it actually means.
So I guess, when we watched it back a few months after. When I watched it back a few months after and I heard the quotes and they were a bit more fresh.
Rihanot Ojo-Oba:
Well done. Uncovering. It is really, yes. The moment I heard, “I hate all women. Every woman is evil”. I was like, I just paused it. I said, no, not today. But then I had to go back to it, and I’m like, no, no way. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much.
Yes, thank you.
Jennifer Luu:
Thank you so much for getting through it. Thank you for watching.
Tiaraoluwa Fadeyi:
Thank you so much for sharing your profound insights and research with us.
Thank you so much for working, understanding, and addressing the complexities of the Incel culture and the ideologies. So thank you so much for coming on. And thank you for your work.
Rihanot Ojo-Oba:
To all of our listeners, we hope today’s episode has provided a deeper understanding of the challenges posed by Incel ideology and the importance of constructive dialogue and actions.
Tiaraoluwa Fadeyi:
Don’t forget to subscribe to the Counter Narrative Podcast. And you can follow us on Instagram, Twitter and TikTok.
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